06-25-1981 VC WS-MMINUTES OF THE WORKSHOP SESSION OF THE
VILLAGE COUNCIL OF NORTH PALM BEACH, FLORIDA
HELD THURSDAY, JUNE 25, 1981
Present: V. A. Marks, M.D., Mayor
Tom Valente, Vice Mayor
. William H. Brown, President Pro Tem
Al Moore, Councilman
Harriet Nolan, Councilwoman
Raymond Howland, Village Manager
Herbert Gildan, Village Attorney
Dolores R. Walker, Village Clerk
Mayor Marks called the Workshop Session to order at 8:45 ROLL CALL
p.m. All members of the Council and Staff were present.
A discussion was held concerning the bid award for under- BID AWARD -
ground site work, demucking, dawatering and clearing for UNDERGROUND SIT
the Valerie Delacorte Community Center. This item will WORK - DELACORT
be placed on the Regular agenda of 7-9-81. CENTER
A discussion was held concerning the proposed "Palm Beach PROPOSED COUNTY
County Mangrove Protection Ordinance". President Pro Tem ORDINANCE
Brown requested Attorney H. Gildan to advise if there PROTECTING
might arise any conflicts with our existing ordinance. MANGROVES
Attorney H. Gildan stated the ordinance was basically the
same as ours, but goes slightly further to cover all
mangroves. It is in greater detail, but the same general
concept as ours. Ours is more comprehensive in that it
protects all aquatic life and theirs deals with mangroves
alone. It was suggested an amending ordinance be passed
requiring a permit from the Village. It was the consensus
of the Council to wait and see if the County does pass
their proposed ordinance, and then deal with any conflicts
that might arise.
A discussion was held concerning schedules for budget BUDGET SESSION
sessions. The following is the Budget Workshop Schedule:* SCHEDULES
July 7th - Country
July 8th - Country
Salaries
Capital
Federal
July 27th - General
July 28th - General
July 29th - General
Club
Club
Projects
Revenue Sharing
Fund
Fund
Fund
*Meetings to begin at 7:30 p.m. until 10:00 p.m.
A discussion was held concerning anti-litter signs being ANTI-LITTER
posted in the Village. It was the consensus of the SIGNS
Council that for the present time, no signs should be
posted. However, the Public Safety Department should make
an effort to crack down on violators.
There being no further business to come before the Council, ADJOURNMENT
the meeting was adjourned at 10:15 p.m.
Minutes transcribed by: Sally Hart, Deputy Village Clerk
WORKSHOP SESSION
JUNE 25, 1981
BB:
' VAM
WHB:
VAM
RH:
May I ask one thing before we leave this item? We have a comparison
of policemen's staring salaries with other communities. Is there any
chance of getting comparisons of other grades up to Sergeant, with
other communities? In other words, we may be low starting. Sergeants
may be a different question or something of that nature. I ,just don't
kpow. I'd like to have more than starting salaries.
I think the thing - tonight, that while you're doing this, we need to
give him a little information here. He knows he has this final sessio
coming up and apparently from his letter back, I've forgotten what
date it was now, in reference to how much, percentage-wise, he needed
and also the hospitalization. My personal feeling is we should come
up to a starting salary that is very compatible with any area we have
here. And then, percentage-wise, I think the rest of the people ought
to be up above that. I think this is a -whatever the percentage is
I agree with everything they are asking for except the longevity,
really
I don't want the longevity, I think they will not fight for it if we
give them, if they get the insurance. Is that the way you understand
it Ray?
Yes sir.
TV: I don't think we ought to give them the whole..
HN: I don't think they ought to have the whole insurance..
TV: I don't either - You got to say something - you can come back
next year..
HN: I'm sorry you can't, you can't - well something to that effect.
VAM: Well now is a good time to discuss it, right now because if he's
going to go back he has to go and do something if you want to give
him some guidance, this is a good time to do it.
AM: t4ay I ask a question? The preliminary hearing we had, wasn't a
majority in favor of 100% medical?
VAM: I thought they were.
AM: I think that's what the gentleman was told.
-------I was against it, I don't know who the majority was
TV: I voted against it.
VAM: A majority of three people when we were here.
AM: I answered Ray's letter the 27th - I didn't give it to him yet, but I
have an anwer for him
VAM: Well Ray, what do you think you can sell, do you think
RH: My general impression that uh, a long time ago we agreed on the
health and its been my opinion since then.......that the majority
of the Council would go along with the 15% and the 100% health
insurance if we dropped out the longevity.
AM: That's my impression.
RH: The other communities are also going to go up. I'm trying to get the
feeling what they're doing
AM: The majority answered your letter the 27th that way?
RH: Yes sir
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AM:
HN:
VAM:
AM:
RH:
Cause that's the only memo I know that you mentioned..
We off the police now?
No, we're still discussing it
Well if you're still on the policement, I bring up a point I wrote
that Mr. Howland sent me....What in the heck did the Village ask for
in the negotiation. The only thing I know we said would like to have
a three year contract. To me, the Village has not received one iota
from them; we haven't really asked them for anything. If you're going
to negotiate a contract, then there should be something that we want
and something they want and you meet and compromise. It's all a one
direction street as far as I can see and from last years negotiation
the biggest negotiator for the police department was the head of the
police department. We still have not received anything and if we,
I'm not in favor of 15%, I'll tell you that. I'm not in favor of
100% medical because you're going to wind up with one department 15%
and one department with medical and what are you going to do with the
other people in the Village that work just as hard at their jobs as
the policemen do at theirs, and some of them have jobs just as hazar-
dous as theirs are and do not receive some of the benefits of
schooling and other things that the state has allowed for police and
firemen. So that's one hickey I've got with the thing.
You have to look at the overall picture - if we're going to give, then
they have to give and I can't see this gentleman sitting there another
year negotiating a contract with same doggone thing. So, if the
majority wants to give 15% and 100% okay, the majority gives it but
we want a three year contract with. only pay increases negotiated next
year.
There are some changes in that contract that I intend to make before
I go along with the deal. I won't say they are major, but they're
definitely some wording changes that have got to be made as a result
of some problems we have run into this year, before I'll come to any
agreement. I would say we don't have a great load of bargaining
power because we are so far behing there s hardly a trade off you can
come up with....I can't bargain on - okay, will you promise not to be
sick next year, or do you promise to do this, or do you promise...
I really don't think that you can compare the police or the police
union with public safety fire fighters with another group of employees
because they're a heavy risk outfit right now and I think that's reall
proven itself lately with what's going on in this Village. T see
nothing but the straight hard facts that things are going to get
worse.
AM: I agree with you
VAM: Do you have something on the police Harriet?
HN: Yeh, I believe I was the third one for 100% medical, but having
talked around and having talked to some of the other employees, when
they've heard this, they have, I, if we're going to do for one, I
want to do for all or I'm not going to do for any
VAM: I thought we decided we would do it for everybody
HN: We're not paying 100% medical for everybody
'VAM: I thought that was what we decided - all three, we had three votes,
three people said they would
HN: I think we asked for some figures back on that. Also, how much it was
going to cost and we haven't received any figures. Before I make a
final determination I'd like to have some figures on it.
AM: No, I haven't got them either.
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VAM:
TV:
VAM:
'TV:
VAM:
AM:
All right, now the salary, the thing is the police department, while
we're doing this, while we're discussing, this, do we need more
policemen?
We are going to need them, but he's gotta pay them what we put in the
budget. To sit in there a month ago and find out we budgeted 13,400
and he kept telling us that we only pay them 12,000. That's his fault
it's not our fault. If we give the man 12,500 and he doesn't pay him,
I refuse to take the responsibility for it.
I agree with you
I dust don't understand why I'm the heavy and he gave him a thousand
less...
Do you think we need additional - the additional two policemen?
I think we should po to a volunteer police force to assist our
policemen. We don t have it, we could use it.
HN: While you're talking on that you ought to consider paramedics too. It'
going to come up with the new ruling once again you have to have two
men per shift, which means we need two more parameds. So you're
looking at - do you want two more parameds, do you want two more polic
do you want, I mean we could go on and on and on
TV: I thought we gave him one fire med and one paramed the last time
HN: Two per shift, we're not going to have
AM: If your talking about policemen I understand from the literature we've
got that the state is budgeted policemen to take care of Air Force
Beach once it is purchased. You don't really have to mess with that
unless you get an emergency call in. Also I understand from
correspondence that we received that the County now is doing some
patrolling over there night time, and I don't know what the other
time is, I've forgotten the complete detail of the memo, so that
relieves us of the responsibility somewhat of there, and as time
progresses forward we'll have less people in that area
VAM: Do you think with the increase in salary, do we have a full quota,
we don't have a full quota, this is what
HN: Yes
RH: You might have a full quota with our current quota
VAM: Do you think we could handle it with that
RH: No
HN: Well what about two parameds in lieu of two policemen and have them
cross-trained once again? Then you've got both things covered
RH: I'm shaking my head no because I just can't see dumpingg into more
parameds. We may have to cross that bridge some day, but we need
the patrolmen and let's let the parameds......
BB: I should think Mr. Mayor that when the state takes over Air Force
Beach, and that's liable to be three years from now, you can - and
you find out you don't need them, by attrition you can drop the
two, but right now there is no doubt in my mind that we need them
AM: I question what you mean by two or three years with the state. If
they file it's theirs and if budgeted in this year's budget it's
100 and some odd thousand dollars I read in a memo that somebody
wrote
RH: 129,000 dollars
AM: It's nothing more than Old Port Cove thats dot guards up there and
they call us in if they need us but you don t patrol Old Port Cove
that I know of
VAM: Apparently, like every department, its urgency to have people now
the question is do you feel we need two .more
AM: Yes
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VAM: How do you feel Harriet?
HN: I don't really feel one way or the other right now because it hasn't
been proven to me that we, I mean I've seen the statistics they've
given us but he wants one more clerical too and you know you give him
two cops now and one clerical and next year he'll need another cop.
I mean it - we're a small community, I might compromise and give him
one more
AM: We're small but we're substantially larger than we were when we set
the number of policement, patrolmen, and also the crime rate is up
also you can see the calls have more than doubled on one year
HN: But he doesn't have his roster filled now. So really in essence
you're talking about four more positions because two of them aren't
filled. So does he need dust to fill the two, or does he need the
four? See what I'm saying?
AM
Yeh, I see what you're saying but looking at statistics I dust the
statistics, I dust the statistics by themselves, uh said you needed
You either need them - now,or you had too many two years ago
The municipality of NPB, as far as its boundary goes has not changed
since 1956 except the land fill on the other side. We have added
people and people come and people go. U.S. ~~1 went from a two-lane
to a four-lane. There might be more cars on the road today than
before but adding policement in my opinion ie not going to prevent
what he says our crime rate is up. When you talk about the crime rate
what are you really talking about crime rate; petit larceny might be
2,000 cases, but you only got one mayor - I don't know what his crime
rate figure is. The last thing I saw that came out from the state
that was in the reading file in there, North Palm Beach had a very
low crime rate. In fact we all talked about it. Five years ago I
thought we had too many people down there. I don't think we've
increased it much in five years. There's never enough people in any
department in any companqq anywhere to take care of what management
of that department says he needs. Mr. Brown is well aware of that
fact from his long service of where people cried I need, I need, I
need. But, it's better to be shorthanded than it is longhanded. By
that I mean people can work longer, not longer but I mean better, if
you know there is nobody sitting back of the desk who'll back me up.
I have nothing against policemen and firemen. I think they do excel-
lent fobs, but I think they are in some categories in some cases
they don't need to be. I look at the guy who pulls a handle on a
packer over there, he stands as much chance of getting yanked in that
thing or crushed as the buy, or policeman does getting run over.
I'm not in favor of adding any more to that department down there
until somebody shows me more than I've read so far that we need
people and I haven't enought information to prove it.
VAM: You feel, in other words, that if we give them adequate if they get
an adequate salary, I'm dust asking you questions, if they get an
adequate salary, adequate benefits they need - if we fill the
department in, we have enough. people - is that how you feel?
AM: Right, and when you talk about adequate salary I look at the
comparison of cities of our size and shape and what lives in here and
what type business we have because every municipality is different
from the other one. We are a more home type Village than the one
down the street below us
VAM: But you can't have good people working in your Village unless you
AM: You can't compare cities to cities, they're not the same. Just cause
our population is 11,000 but we think we've got 15,000 living here
we compared it with a city of 15,000 people that cover 40.000 square
acres. We got less than a square mile here, I think. You can't
compare it that way.
VAM: How about you Harriet?
HN: What?
VAM: For additional policemen?
HN: Well, I'd like him to fill the spots he has empty that are already
allocated to him, and I'd like to give him one more
-5-
VAM: One more -
BB: I feel that with the number of additional calls, and they have to
answer calls or you are going to have the Villagers very unhappy,
and I don't see how they can handle double the calls without some
addition. I'll admit I don't know whether it's one or whether it's
two, it would have to depend on a professional staff to advise us
of that. Now we only shouldn't get it from the Chief, I think we
ought to get it from Ray"s opinion who's on top of it all the time.
I•don't think that the - when I was doing what Councilman Moore said
I was doing - what the hell they needed - and I knew exactly what they
were doing and when they asked for 200 people and I knew they only
needed 100, I knew what to do, but I don't know and I don't think
any of us know.
AM: Let me ask one question - maybe you can tie it in with what he said,
while he's looking for information When you say the number
of calls - I came back into town Saturday night and on Prosperity
Farms Road all the equipment in the Village was located there as far
as the police and paramedic went, with a guy running into a ditch -
this was about a quarter to eleven at night and there wasn't anyone
else out there available, they were all right there. One accident.
So, that doesn't show efficiency to me and any time I see one patrol
car going with its' siren, all.the rest of them go in the same
direction. To me that Bays we got too doggone many people. Now that
in rebuttal to your calls. Unless they can prove something different.
TV: Well, I'll give them the two people they want but I have a couple of
provisions. One that somebody along the way is fire trained, cross
fire trained, and the other person for a paramedic type person. We
just don't hire a - two more patrol type people. I still think that
some day, around here, we've got to have a person that's on duty 24
hours a day that can fight afire from the office - not that Joyce is
going to drive over from where he lives, or whoever, and that we've
got to have - we still have a mature community and we are
going to have more paramedic calls in the long run than we have
police calls. It's that type of thing, where they can help you, and
d
'
hi
k
I
on
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n
we should give them anybody - I mean they can
hire new people and train. the people they have. in the other jobs -
don't hire anybody that's just patrol. We have to educate and up-
grade the people we have to these other jobs, and that helps them
twice. They get paid more, they can get a raise, they are talking
about needing more money - you get more for both of those two jobs.
I mean we're not hurting, we're helping ourselves.
VAM: Ray, how do you feel? I know how you feel, but go ahead and give the
RH: I honestly feel we do have a problem. You ask me if I'm 100% -
support a secretary, I'd have to say no I don't but there's no
question in my mind, I feel that we need two more patrolmen and I
think that probably Tom hit things on the head when he said they
ought to be cross trained. Take that direction so that we have some
more skilled people in the fire department. And, if it's true what
Harriet is saying, we probably will be definitely - someday - do
need the paramedic. I honestly feel in my own mind, somebody can
say I'm nuts, but I do feel our problem - I don't want to call it a
crime problem, because I don't know if it is a crime problem, but
U.S. Cpl gets worse just as I said in my memo covering John's.
Northlake gets worse and it ien't the people who live here and it isn'
the numbers of people who live here that are really the problem. It's
the numbers of people who are coming in through here, staying
temporarily and things like that, leading to our problem.
etc.
VAM: As far as a secretary then you're not really too convinces of that
one---
HN: I'll go along with the two if they are done the way Tom suggests
because he's fire and I'm paramed and that covers --- One should be
cross trained.
VAM: I'll agree with Tom. We should have someone sitting in this place
over here on every shift that is fire trained.
-6-
HN:
AM:
Definite cross trained - but if they're just going to carry a gun, no.l
Let me ask you a question. When you talk of training firemen and I
policemen, we're the only municipality up here that is supposedly a
public safety department, if you want to call it that,
VAM: What do you mean supposedly?
AM:
That's just what I meant. We have volunteer firemen - that is
probably the biggest fire fighters. That's who does the fire fightin
What would it take to change to where you have policemen and you have
x number of firemen to live in the station around the clock, plus
the Chief? Like Lake Park does and Palm Beach Gardens does, and
knock off this stuff -
HN: An awful lot of money
AM:
HN:
AM:
VAM:
' BB:
VAM:
AM:
HN:
VAM:
BB:
I'm not sure we're talking about an awful lot of money because you're
using them for both purposes and ou need less policemen if they are
all policemen and not firemen. I~ve never seen any figures on it.
I'd like to see what the heck it would do to us. And, we kind of
say we're public safety and it's kind of called that, and we pay the
firemen, the policemen so much. for going down and getting qualified
and he's not really here, he lives in Lake Worth and we have afire
here, or he lives in Jupiter, or wherever the heck they live. But,
we're paying them based on that fire thing and by the time they get
from where they live to here we haven't gained that much from them.
It's only the ones on duty at the time that you really use.
Where are you going to house them?
I don't know - you all approved that building down there --
Go for two of them as long as they are cross trained.
I have no objection for Ray to make a study of Councilman Moore's
suggestion. I don't think it should effect this budget session.
Go ahead and plan on the two cross trained and the percentages -
I think you got percentages from people here on the budgets - so I
think you've got that 15/° and 100% health - I think we said was for
everybody in the Village and when we come back we may have to change
it - when we get back to our final figures.
The majority of the Council went with 15% and 100% medical for the
ending --- what did the Village get for this?
I thought we had agreed to look and see what the surrounding areas -
The minimum has to be brought up to where it starts - by the
time you take that salary
I'd like to know the comparison of the other salaries - we only
talk about starting salaries
sh
Mr. Gildan stated that the only way the Village can be relieved of POQ.ICE PATROL -
the responsibility of that area is by asking the Legislature to AIR FORCE BEACH
de-annex it from the Village or by persuaditlg the State Park's
Department to have their own personnel to handle fires, etc.
The Village was created on August 13, 1956. The Mayor suggested that FINANCING THE 25TH
the celebration of the Village's 25th Anniversary beheld over ANNIVERSARY
Labor Day; Zhat funds should be available for financing the festivities.
The Mayor noted that the Golf Driving Range is losing money and it
had been suggested previously that it be leased. The Mayor asked
the Village Manager to get someone to look into this possibility and
report back to the Council. It was also suggested that the 13th tee
be changed to the 1st tee because everyone goes out there cold and
they would use a bucket of balls if they had to wait to tee off;
also the concession might make some money there.
There being no further business to came before the Council, the
meeting was adjourned at 9:35 p.m.
u
Minutes transcribed by: Cheryl S. Collins, Deputy Village Clerk
GOLF DRIVING RANGE
ADJOURN~'IENi'
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